Admin
I am opening a new topic about ferments, in which I propose to exchange questions and answers on growing, feeding, storing ferments.

It turned out that we have a lot of starter cultures - they are all different, interesting, with different feeding, but the principle of growing them is almost the same for everyone, therefore it is better to ask questions and answer them in one place, because on almost all topics where starter cultures are mentioned , the questions and answers to them are the same.

Here are the addresses where you can find them:

Potato sourdough
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=8150.new#new

Whole-grain starter
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=8140.0;topicseen

Malt leaven
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=7197.0


Kalvel's sourdough and bread made with it
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=7314.0


Sourdough on grapes from 🔗
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=70


Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=3394.0

French starters by Eric Kaiser
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=4994.0


Kefir starter culture by Admin
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=1068.0


Monastic leavens
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=176.0


Luca's "eternal leaven"
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=41.0


Preparation of uterine starter culture
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=1331.0


Self-leavening bread from Jamie Oliver (Gypsy)
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=1310.0


Classic rye homemade yeast-leavened bread (Dentist)
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=84.0


The use of starter cultures in the production of grain bread. Bread is the head of everything number 22
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.15


The chemical part of dough formation All bread - head No. 23
(BAKERY MANUAL. 1913)
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.15


Now I am constantly engaged in my lactic acid (kefir) sourdough and constantly bake wheat-rye bread with it.
In the subject Lactic acid starter culture by Admin I will continue to give information on this leaven, and notify you about it, look into this topic more often yourself.
In this thread I will answer questions about leavens, and together with you I will solve the problems of leavens.

What kind of bread I get with MK-leaven can be found here:


Molded wheat-rye bread on MK-leaven from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3470.new#new


First, I want to define a leaven.

Sourdough is sour, that is, fermented dough.

With regular bread baking, it is more profitable to make the sourdough yourself. This is not difficult at all, especially since you need to cook it only for the first baking, and for all subsequent ones, just leave a little dough for the last time and use it as a leaven. It turns out, as it were, "perpetuum mobile".

IN THE BAKERY MANUAL 1913
(The chemical part of the dough formation Bread is all - head number 23) the definition of what a "good leaven" is:

“A good leaven is characterized by the following qualities: it has an alcoholic smell and a sour taste, it should not sink in water; when pressing its surface (with a finger), the formed depression should soon disappear. If baking is carried out continuously and part of the sourdough is constantly taken into work, then, as practice teaches, you should take no more than half of it each time, and immediately add the same amount of fresh dough (mixed in warm water), which, after mixing well, put in a warm place (at + 25 to 30 R.); here they let her stand quietly for two hours to allow the whole mass to ferment. If, on the contrary, the leaven is rarely used and it has to lie for several days (sometimes for weeks without using it, then, as indicated above, it must be refreshed by adding flour. "

I must say that this definition is given for the industrial production of sourdough, but nevertheless ...

And here is a description from the same Guide of how a leavened dough piece should look like before planting in the oven:

“The loaf, ready for baking, is a raw spongy mass consisting of elastic gluten mixed with starch particles and soaked in a solution of sugary substances and peptonized proteins. The pores of this loose mass are filled with bubbles of carbon dioxide, which keeps the dough from falling. An aqueous solution of this mass contains a small amount of alcohol, acetic and lactic acid, i.e., fermentation products. In this form, the loaves are loaded into the oven, where they undergo further chemical changes. "

SO who asks the question first?
taty
Admin. As you think. is it possible to store starter culture in a layer of a microwave oven. or everything is better in glass.
And it is getting too hot. in your opinion, does the behavior of the sourdough change in summer? You've been doing this for a long time ...
Forgive the off-topic another question (I don't know where to ask it)
if you grind arnautka groats into flour. what will such flour be called
I add this to the wheat leaven. I leave it at room temperature until morning. then I bake bread in the oven. very tasty - and what to call - whole grain ...
Admin
Quote: taty

Admin. As you think. is it possible to store the starter culture in a microwave container. or everything is better in glass.
And it is getting too hot. in your opinion, does the behavior of the sourdough change in summer? You've been doing this for a long time ...

I am answering the first question for now.

According to my observations, it can also be stored in plastic, only of course which is intended for storing food.
I store in a mayonnaise glass. I pour 1/2 jars from the finished sourdough, close the lid, and put it in the refrigerator and any shelf. I use the rest of the starter immediately, usually 2.5-3 cups.
I also kept the sourdough in a plastic dish, and found no changes.

On hot days, the leaven may sour earlier, that is, it may mature when feeding.
How to find out?
When feeding, the starter culture immediately begins to grow, and then after a while the growth stops, the cap begins to turn into a loose, dirty foam that wants to fall off.
This can be seen in my photos of feeding the Liquid starter culture (see the topic Lactic acid starter culture by Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0)
Alexandra
Admin,

I have a question about lactic acid sourdough versus, say, whole wheat flour sourdough with pineapple juice - the famous Lionel Poliana whole grain bread and sourdough breads that do not require kneading are baked on it.
Or sourdough with rye flour and water.
Other starter cultures are fed only once before use, periodically, and not necessarily even on the day of use. At Breadtopia, the starter is taken out of the refrigerator and baked without yeast.
And my favorite kefir or lactic sourdough starter requires 3 days of feeding, even if we use it regularly, say, once a week. And the dough still costs at least 7-8 hours if you don't add yeast.
Does this mean that the lactic acid culture is weaker?
Or is there another explanation?
Is it possible for a strong, long-grown lactic acid culture to be fed 1 time and kneaded on the same day?
My leaven has become strong, and I notice, I do everything as usual, I add the same quantities - and the finished bread is too sour. You can, of course, reduce the amount of leaven. But maybe, by analogy with non-dairy ferments, it is easier and faster to feed 1 time?

taty
I, too, became more and more sour over time. but I'm not on master's milk
did. maybe therefore. it's natural right from the cow ...
And how are you. Admin. Refer to suggestions to add salt to the starter. Well, salt seems to reduce acidity. for some reason on some sites they recommend
Alexandra
In my opinion, the fat content does not matter. I only use completely fat-free kefir or whey from it
taty
milk is pasteurized at dairies. I will buy milk specially on the market and try a new microlearder. as soon as possible.
But on the water I did it from Lyudmila - french traditional - good.but somehow there was absolutely no sourness. (maybe it was cold then).
And why it is advised to throw out half of the leaven (very often found) - this is such a ritual or a secret weapon ...
Self-taught baker
Quote: Alexandra

Admin,

Is it possible for a strong, long-grown lactic acid culture to be fed 1 time and kneaded on the same day?
When I don't have time, I feed my micro-leaven once 10-12 hours before the start of the batch. And everything is fine, without yeast everything rises, but on condition that I put it overnight.
The leaven has been living since July.
argentum
Hello everybody!
I live in Italy, I have been reading the forum for several days, I have not registered until today. I have not used yeast since January 2008, only leaven. Accordingly, this topic is very interesting, in the sense when the leaven lives well in the refrigerator and bread is prepared with its help 1-3 times a week.

I would like to discuss the activation (feeding) of the starter culture, I used one method, but after reading on the Internet, doubts appeared, so in order, first my method:
- created sourdough in January (only white flour and water, took the base from here, 🔗) the first breads were sour, then after top dressing they returned to normal;
- 400 g of leaven in a glass jar always live in the refrigerator (I use scales, the jar itself is empty, I was lucky, it also weighs exactly 400 g, it is convenient to count);
- when I make white bread, usually after dinner: I take 200 g of sourdough directly from the refrigerator, add a slightly warmed 360 ml. water, stir in it a tablespoon of barley malt, Art. a spoonful of salt, sometimes a couple of tbsp. tablespoons of olive oil, stir this mixture in a bucket of a bread machine, add about 600 g of flour, turn on the dough mode (I have a Severin 3983 bread machine) which kneads for 30 minutes and then keeps it warm for an hour and a half.
- at the same time I put the jar with the remaining sourdough on the scales, add 100 g of water and 100 g of flour, mix and immediately put it in the refrigerator.
- in the morning the bread has risen, I set the baking mode and it turns out very tasty with a subtle sourness.
- in the refrigerator, the leaven doubles in about 2 days and remains in this state. I also tried it with rye flour with bran, generally gaining strength in a day.

I am interested in the feeding stage, here it is:
🔗
We now have a leaven that we must prepare (activate) each time before directly eating. In this case, it is necessary not forget that 40s-max is the permissible temperature for our test.
There are 3 ways to activate:
-classical 3-stage, the most laborious, but also the most optimal;


it is written that the activation should take place in 3 stages, in short, I tried it, it takes much more time, and the bread tastes the same. Over these months, I tried different options for feeding the sourdough, including from Italian sites, sometimes adding malt, sometimes changing the flour to a strong Canadian Manitoba, sometimes for example, after feeding the sourdough, left it warm for several hours - it just started to ferment faster and that's it.
What exactly am I not clear about? The phrase in bold above. Maybe activation is needed when bread is made almost every day? And I usually do it on average 2-3 times a week and do without activation, probably just has time even in the refrigerator to gain strength, activate?
Admin

Alexandra, the first answer to you.
I, too, constantly try different versions of fermented starter cultures, since this particular starter culture is more dear to me than all others, and I just like it more than others, although I do not write about all my experiences on the site. When I get a specific result, then I will issue it on the air. This can be seen in my lactic acid sourdough topic.
And I also read and look at different information and different sites, and I myself study and add my own, etc.

Starter cultures can be made different and on different components. And you can stand, withstand them for different times, I also tried that.
You can stand in the refrigerator, it rises well there too (sometimes faster, sometimes slower).Why it depends - apparently, just like bread - on the composition of the components, is kefir, yogurt, cottage cheese, as it should be, fat-free or fatty, shop-grade powder or natural market, warm or cold, etc.
I have tried all this, I even keep notes with each feeding.

Is lactic acid sourdough strong? It is difficult to unequivocally answer your question.
Look at my photos on the site.
I even divided them into two leavens THICK and LIQUID.
The first thick leaven was supplied anew, very first feeding, beginning, but look how you rush upward, even in the refrigerator, what a lifting force.
I took the number of products for her at random, only to get a dough for pancakes. And she did it first on the old market yogurt, then on the old market cottage cheese.
I count only the amount of flour that has been put in, so that later I can determine the amount of wheat flour and other ingredients when kneading the dough.

And look at the photo of the LIQUID starter culture, where the amount of flour and liquid (market fatty whey) was kept strictly. The leaven does not rise so much, but it is strong inside, only at the end of the 3rd day a large cap rose.
By the way, this feeding technique is 100 ml. flour and 100 ml. I spied water on other sites and books, in relation to wheat flour and water, and decided to try it myself. For some reason, this principle is considered classical (see Preparation of the uterine starter culture, this is taken from the book).

What is called "feel the difference"
I personally did not feel the difference in the taste and appearance of the finished bread. This can be seen in the photo here, where the upper cut of the bread is made with thick sourdough, and the bottom cut is the bread with liquid sourdough. Moreover, both breads were ground in one day, and their size is 24x12x12 cm.

Molded wheat-rye bread on MK-leaven from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=3470.new#new

Alexandra, I have never fermented bread for 7-8 hours, I have adopted the principle of industrial production of rye bread as a basis - it is lactic acid bacteria and yeast for quick baking. I just like it better, I like it that way.

Is it possible for a strong, long-grown lactic acid culture to be fed 1 time and kneaded on the same day?

It is quite possible if she is very active.
I have deduced for myself the "formula" of the readiness of the leaven. It will be ready when it rises with a hat (no matter what height) and then the hat begins to acquire an ugly, bumpy look of old foam (sorry, like in meat broth when boiling). This means the dough has fermented, sour.
Let us recall again what sourdough is - it is a peroxidized, fermented dough.

Is it possible for a strong, long-grown lactic acid culture to be fed 1 time and kneaded on the same day?

I am giving a quote from "CHEMICAL PART OF PASTRY FORMATION" (MANUAL ON BAKERY PRODUCTION. 1913)

“If baking is carried out continuously and a part of the leaven is constantly taken into work, then, as practice teaches, you should take no more than half of it each time, and immediately add the same amount of fresh dough (mixed in warm water), which, after mixing well, put in a warm place (at + 25 to 30 R.); here they let her stand quietly for two hours to allow the whole mass to ferment. If, on the contrary, the leaven is rarely used and it has to lie for several days (sometimes for weeks without using it, then, as indicated above, it must be refreshed by adding flour. "

The full text can be read in the topic Lactic acid sourdough.

My leaven has become strong, and I notice, I do everything as usual, I add the same quantities - and the finished bread is too sour. You can, of course, reduce the amount of leaven. But maybe, by analogy with non-dairy ferments, it is easier and faster to feed 1 time?

Perhaps here you need to play with the components and the feeding method. Leave 1 \ 2 cup of sourdough for storage and then start feeding (renewing) the sourdough on its basis, or replace sour foods with more bland ones.You can take less ready-made starter culture and add just water to it (not sour whey).
Everything is learned through experimentation and experience.

Other starter cultures are fed only once before use, periodically, and not necessarily even on the day of use. At Breadtopia, the starter is taken out of the refrigerator and baked without yeast.

Any bread, according to any recipe, on any sourdough, with any method of preparation - means only your personal taste preferences.
Are you sure you personally enjoy pineapple juice bread? Or maybe it's very tasty on the contrary!

Why do I prefer to age the starter for three days and make it on old lactic acid products.

Believe it or not, today, as a recycler, I keep stocks of old yogurt, old whey, old cottage cheese and old sour cream in the zero chamber of the refrigerator. They do not deteriorate so quickly there, but they still age, reach a condition. And then from them at the right time I make the sourdough feeding.
Again, I can repeat for the hundredth time that old lactic acid products do not have that pronounced sour kefir taste that many people do not like in bread (including me), and old lactic acid products have fermentation properties, which is very important. and what contributes to just raising the sourdough in conjunction with rye flour. For three days of proofing, some kind of fermentation chemical processes take place in the leaven, which make the taste of the leaven and then the bread sourish, but not with the taste of kefir. Here is a completely different sour taste and smell, which goes well with rye flour, and for which you like this bread and want to eat it a lot.
Lead the experiment yourself, make sourdough and bread on fresh and aged lactic acid products and you yourself will understand everything.
You don't even have to bake sourdough bread, just bake elementary pancakes from wheat flour or rolled oats. You will feel the difference right away.

Alexandra, all the questions are difficult to answer.
There is any sourdough (I have lactic acid) that works, and whose abilities we know, and then the flag is in our hands, as they say, let's try to work with it further and invent something better.

Once again, I recommend reading this material, you will find many answers for yourself.

"CHEMICAL PART OF DOUGH FORMATION" (BAKERY MANUAL. 1913)

Alexandra
Admin,

Thanks for the thoughtful detailed answer.

The last bread was made not on whey, but on old kefir. By the way, I haven't tried it fresh. But all the same, for me the sourdough smell in bread became too strong, not kefir, but the smell of strong sourdough. If you reduce its amount, the dough may not rise, and you do not want to add yeast. Therefore, I will try to feed on the same day, and once with flour and water, and not with kefir.

Thanks again for the educational endeavors
Admin
Quote: taty

I, too, became more and more sour over time. but I'm not on master's milk
did. maybe therefore. it's natural right from the cow ...
And how are you. Admin. Refer to suggestions for adding salt to the starter. Well, salt seems to reduce acidity. for some reason, some sites recommend

1, read the answer to Alexandra, where I touched on the acid of the leaven.

2. what purpose do you pursue by adding sourdough. Here is a quote from the 1913 Recommendations.

"Some advise to sprinkle it on top with table salt, which on the one hand delays fermentation, and on the other hand protects from decay. How much the addition of salt (NaCl) delays fermentation, can be seen from the following (Intend. Journal of 1908, No. 5, Art. 85). researches T. Golden admixture of 16% table salt to the dough delays fermentation for 7 days, and 4% salt - for 14 hours. "

It seems to me that with the availability of good refrigerators today, and the frequency of its use, there is no need for this. If only going on vacation for a long time. My sourdough survived the hunger test in the refrigerator for about a month, and then gradually recovered.
Admin
Quote: Alexandra

In my opinion, the fat content does not matter.I only use completely fat-free kefir or whey from it

It also seems to me that the fat content does not affect the result.

For example, I buy all dairy products from a milkmaid, directly from under the cow, natural and high-fat, I already wrote about this.

Nevertheless, the leaven eats and grows very well. This can be seen from my photos in the subject Lactic sourdough, take a look. Even if I use food straight from the refrigerator.
Admin

Alexandra, here's another answer to your question.

"You must pay attention so that fermentation does not last too long, otherwise, on the one hand, the dough will begin to taste too sour, and on the other, there is a risk that cracks will appear in the loaves, through which carbon dioxide will escape, as a result of which the dough settles and the bread becomes dense Therefore, at the moment when the dough finally rises, the loaf should be immediately put into the oven. But if this is not possible, then further fermentation must be stopped, for which it is enough to cool the loaves. For this purpose they are transferred to a cool room or exposed to cool air. "
Admin

answer Argentum

Hello sunny Italy!

Your principle of approach to feeding sourdough and baking bread from it is not a novelty, many people use it.
I grew my own sourdough myself, "Mr. Chance" helped and, as it turned out, successfully helped. Therefore, I made the leaven practically "for myself", observed, recorded my actions, and so on ... And I still observe and write ...

What can I say.
If there are positive aspects in your approach, it suits you, the leaven is healthy, the bread turns out to be good, then go in this direction.

You have been on our forum for only a few days. So that I don't repeat myself and rewrite all my topics, I recommend that you first go through these topics of mine, get acquainted with the principle of feeding my sourdough, the approach to baking my wheat-rye bread, see his photo, see other topics on sourdough on the site, and then we will meet again.
I will gladly take part in the conversation.

Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

Kefir starter culture by Admin
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=1068.0

Monastic leavens
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...smf&Itemid=26&topic=176.0

Luca's "eternal leaven"
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in..._smf&Itemid=26&topic=41.0

Preparation of uterine starter culture
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=1331.0

The use of starter cultures in the production of grain bread. Bread is the head of everything number 22
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...f&Itemid=26&topic=3394.15

The chemical part of dough formation All bread - head No. 23
(MANUAL OF BAKERY. 1913)
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...f&Itemid=26&topic=3394.15

Molded wheat-rye bread on MK-leaven from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=3470.new#new

I just want to add that there are many principles of approach to leaven, and everyone chooses his own if it gives a positive result. Personally, I don't even want to seek or advocate for the "best" option, or the "correct" option.

If the taste of the bread suits you, then this is your leaven, and it is the best and right one.

MariV
Quote: Alexandra

The last bread was made not on whey, but on old kefir. By the way, I haven't tried it fresh. But all the same, for me there was too strong a leavening smell in bread, not kefir, but the smell of a strong leaven. If you reduce its amount, the dough may not rise, and you do not want to add yeast. Therefore, I will try to feed on the same day, and once with flour and water, and not with kefir.
Alexandre -
I had kefir sourdough in my refrigerator - the smell! - the mash is resting; throw it out - my hand did not rise, but I wanted rye bread with seeds.
I took out the sourdough, poured a half - 150 ml. about - I cheered her up with a broom, I look - she came to life, bubbled. All the same, I threw a half teaspoon of dry yeast and rye flour into it, and into a warm water bath. I also left it for 2 hours. And then with her, cheerful, she muddied rye bread - it turned out well!
Alexandra
Quote: MariV

Alexandre -
I had kefir sourdough in my refrigerator - the smell! - the mash is resting; throw it out - my hand did not rise, but I wanted rye bread with seeds.
I took out the sourdough, poured a half - 150 ml. about - I cheered her up with a broom, I look - she came to life, bubbled.All the same, I threw a half-teaspoon of dry shivers and rye flour into it, and into a warm water bath. I also left it for 2 hours. And then with her, cheerful, she muddied rye bread - it turned out well!

MariV,

I have no doubt that everything is arguing in your hands, and especially rye bread

But I refrain from dry yeast - the whole family has heartburn from them, it turned out that yeast was not shown to me by the hemocode, and the pancreatic diabetic is also a delicate tool that must be protected ...
LaraN
Something lately kefir sourdough is not friends with me (... or am I with her ??). Previously, I always added 80 - 140 ml of sourdough to both rye and wheat, it turned out more magnificent and aromatic. But then the breads stopped rising so well with the sourdough, the crumb became damp, heavy, the roof was clumsy ... Now I bake bread on old kefir. And a jar has been in the refrigerator for a month already, the hand does not rise to throw it away, the smell seems to be good, the serum has peeled off. I prepared this sourdough according to the recipe, fed it, only it does not bubble very well. I put it on at night, by the morning there are a few bubbles on the surface, it rises quite a bit.
jul123
At the beginning of the topic there was a question about the storage of the leaven. A friend of mine who has been baking bread for 15 years explained to me that it is better to store, feed and knead sourdough bread in a glass container. In extreme cases, stainless steel (or in a material that does not react with acid. I did not go into details, I stopped at glass). Sourdough culture is acidic and can react with plastic, even food. Out of harm's way, I even bought myself glass feeding bowls.
He also said that you should not close tightly (some sites suggest making holes in the lid) to "breathe".
If someone tried to cover a simple starter with flour / water with a lid for storage in the refrigerator, share your experience.
argentum
Quote: jul
He also said that it is not necessary to close tightly (some sites suggest making holes in the lid) to "breathe".
If someone tried to cover a simple starter with flour / water with a lid for storage in the refrigerator, share your experience.
It seems to me that it depends on the type of refrigerator, if ordinary, then perhaps and you should not close it tightly, but if No-Frost, then you have to, because this type of refrigerator works on the principle of an air conditioner, that is, it dries the air very much, and accordingly, the leaven will dry out, so I always keep it in a tightly closed jar.
Admin
Quote: argentum

It seems to me that it depends on the type of refrigerator, if ordinary, then perhaps and you should not close it tightly, but if No-Frost, then you have to, because this type of refrigerator works on the principle of an air conditioner, that is, it dries the air very much, and accordingly, the leaven will dry out, so I always keep it in a tightly closed jar.

Yes, and I have No-Frost, but she lives there beautifully for a long time.

In general, according to my observations of the leaven, you need to handle it carefully and politely, kindly, and you don't have to shake over it (as if something), and create painfully special conditions for it.
She perfectly eats all lactic acid products from me, even cold and from the freezer, stands on the table at room temperature when feeding, and in the refrigerator on the meat shelf when she is resting. I keep it in a glass jar under the lid. Although there are a lot of tips on where and how to keep. Choose yours.
You can see what happens to her in the photo in the subject Lactic acid sourdough from Admin.
Admin
In this post, I have summarized the questions about sourdoughs that have already been asked on the forum, and gave answers to these questions, and not only to these.
I hope the questions and answers will help you in preparing and storing the starter culture.

QUESTION: How long can a sourdough live in a refrigerator without feeding?
ANSWER: I lived in the refrigerator without feeding for about a month, but then I had to nurture and feed her for a long time until she gained strength.

QUESTION: How often can you bake with the same sourdough?
ANSWER: you will not bake with the same sourdough, because it needs to be fed periodically so that the sourdough is active.Part of the fresh sourdough is set aside for rest and propagation, and the bulk of the sourdough is used for making bread dough. Starter cultures from one feeding are obtained in the amount of just 2.5-3 cups for one bread.

QUESTION: What kind of flour should you use for sourdough, only white wheat flour?
ANSWER: No, sourdough can be used on both wheat and rye flour.

QUESTION: In what form should sourdough bread be baked, only in the form, in the oven? Can you bake bread in a bread maker?
ANSWER: You can bake sourdough bread in different ways, in the oven on the hearth (without a mold), in a mold, and of course in a bread maker. The sourdough bread recipe can be found on the website.

QUESTION: They say that in order to make sourdough at home, special precautions are needed, sterile dishes, hands, water, etc. Is this so?
ANSWER: I would not say sterile conditions, but the rules of hygiene in the kitchen, which must be observed by each family member under any conditions of work and eating in the kitchen. Of course, clean dishes, clean hands, clean furniture, etc. And the fact that there are various bacteria in the kitchen is no secret, the air is a carrier of various bacteria. It is especially beneficial when there are many different lactic acid products in the house, the bacteria of which penetrate into the leaven with the air and contribute to the sourdough preparation process. After all, sourdough is prepared almost only from flour and water, then why is souring going on? Therefore, it goes that certain bacteria begin to act on these products from the air.

QUESTION: What other additional components are needed besides flour and water for making the sourdough.
ANSWER: Sourdoughs can be different: wheat flour + water, rye flour + water, wheat flour (rye) + lactic acid products, etc. You can see more details on the website in the topic "Sourdough in questions and answers" message No. 1.

QUESTION: How long can a leaven exist, even if it is used periodically.
ANSWER: leaven can last for years! This is an "eternal" leaven, there are cases in history when the leaven was passed from generation to generation for 75 years. At the same time, of course, it must be properly monitored, fed, stored. You can read about this on the website.

QUESTION: How to store the starter correctly if you don't use it.
ANSWER: you need to store the starter in a sealed container (not metal) under a lid (with a hole for air) in the refrigerator, since the starter quickly deteriorates when indoors. I have read many different recommendations for storing the starter culture - just under a lid, and under gauze, etc. My opinion is to store it as your starter culture likes so that it is healthy and does not spoil.

QUESTION: Tell us about the "yeast" leaven.
ANSWER: I know that such a leaven is used on the forum for baking rye bread. The sourdough recipe is as follows:
1 cup rye flour + 1 spoonful of sugar + 2 tsp. yeast.
Water until liquid dough, Exposed for 18 hours in a warm place, and then put into the refrigerator until full use.
Mix rye flour and water in a glass (better) or plastic jar with a lid until the consistency of sour cream. Add yeast and sugar. Stir and leave overnight or more on the table. Then the next day, use as much as necessary according to the prescription, and put the rest in the refrigerator until next time. When the starter culture is reduced to about 1/3 of the original volume, add another half-cup - a cup of flour and a little water, leave overnight, then put in the refrigerator.
Information taken from messages. In more detail, you can see and ask a question directly in the topic.

QUESTION: I put the leaven, but it does not want to rise, just small bubbles, and it has been holding like this for 4 days already. What to do? Maybe she's gone bad?
ANSWER: If there are bubbles, then she is still alive.
Try to beat it strongly with a whisk, thus adding oxygen to it, I do this several times during proofing, you can even see how bubbling starts inside.
Try to put it in a warm place at a temperature of 25-35 * C, but no more.Temperatures above 45 * C are harmful to the yeast, so you should not heat the starter culture above 35 * C.
Remove the dishes from drafts, the dough does not like drafts.
Place the starter in a “warm” plastic or glass dish. Metal dishes are cold, difficult to warm, and will always keep cold.
Try adding a little rye flour to the sourdough, it is more active in the sourdough.
Try adding a little more warm water 30-35 * C, and a little yeast, a little sugar, make a suspension of water and yeast.
Then watch the leaven and periodically let it breathe, whipping with a whisk.
How to feed the starter culture and how it will look at the same time, see here:
Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

QUESTION: what to do, it seems to me that the leaven has died.
ANSWER: The leaven can sit for a long time without moving.
If you are in doubt about her life, then check the following. The spoiled starter culture will smell strongly of acetone, it will be covered with a scab or crust, with a dark crust over the entire surface of the jar, it will begin to mold, the liquid will begin to separate, and the starter culture will divide in layers.
If your leaven has not yet died, but is "near death", then it can still be reanimated, for which (I quote from the Manual for 1913):
“If the sourdough has deteriorated due to an oversight or storage time, then it can be gradually corrected by constantly adding flour with sugar to it or by drying, which is done as follows: small lumps are made from the spoiled sourdough, which are placed in a dry place (Kudryavtsev's method). If there is no leaven left, but sour fermentation is required for black bread, then proceed as follows:
Take 30 lbs. rye flour and pour in one bucket of warm water (at 31 R.). which is pre-diluted with ¼ pound of compressed yeast. Having mixed this dough well, let it stand quietly in a warm place (covering the bowl) for a day, and at first alcoholic fermentation is formed, which then turns into sour (like a leaven). "
Well, if no measures at all lead to resuscitation, start putting a completely new starter culture.

QUESTION: How to put and feed the starter correctly?
ANSWER: Look clearly here, just look very carefully and read the text, and note for yourself some incomprehensible moments.
Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

QUESTION: here you are all the time making a reference to your kefir (lactic acid sourdough), and I want to put the sourdough on wheat flour or on rye and water, what should I do in this case.
ANSWER: Luka made wheat sourdough on water, and it is written about it (with a photo) here:
Preparation of uterine starter culture
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=1331.0
But the principle of growing starter cultures is the same, so you can see my works and photos as an example. Instead of kefir, you can take water, the result will be almost the same.

QUESTION: Tell us about the "monastery" leavens.
ANSWER: I do not work with monastery leavens, so I cannot say anything about them. Lola can tell you in detail about these starters, and information on them is located at this address:
Monastic leavens
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...smf&Itemid=26&topic=176.0
QUESTION: - is it necessary to keep the leaven warm for a day or you can already feed and mix. Or maybe remove it from the battery so that the process does not go so quickly?
6 hours have passed after the first feeding - again full of small bubbles, increased by a factor of 2. What to do - feed or just interfere, and feed tomorrow (ie, 24 hours after the previous feeding)?
I was happy early. After being fed for the first time, she began to grow again. I moved it from the battery to the table. It's 27 degrees, a little cooler. Stirred. The leaven has calmed down and is silent. Since then, I have fed her 2 more times once a day, mixed in between feedings 1 time. My leaven is silent. Rare large bubbles of 3-4 mm appear. But it doesn't grow.The color is creamy grayish, as in the beginning. Doesn't stink.
ANSWER: The starter culture does not need to be fed more often than once a day, and preferably at the same time. The leaven should be hungry. In between, it is better to beat it well several times with a whisk to saturate it with oxygen, after which it should begin to rise. Sourdough can manifest its growth in different ways. Sometimes violently, sometimes completely without visible movement, but when you start stirring it, you will see how it all resists your intervention and even resists inside. Sometimes the movement can appear after a few days.
For more details see the answers in the topic
Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0
and in this topic.

QUESTION: I made the leaven according to the recipe for the eternal leaven from Luca. Only at first she did not want to mature in any way. On the third day, she was still slowly puffing, but not growing. But I continued to feed her and disturb her once a day. And somewhere after the 7th feeding, the process went more actively. Although not as violent as others. To clarify, the volume of the sourdough increased by about half (after the next feeding it was 8 cm in a three-liter jar, then it grew to 12 cm), then the sourdough dropped a little by 2 cm, that is, it began to take 10 cm from the bottom in the jar. Once she rose, and then she fell off without any interference, then I thought that the leaven was ready.
ANSWER: Thought correctly. The leaven, which is acidic and ready, has a cap on top in the form of an uneven bumpy surface, and which begins to fall off. Now you need to use it in bread in the near future (before 12 noon), or put it in the refrigerator for storage.

QUESTION: At the initial stage, what should be the approximate consistency? In general, the mass should be fluid or so thick that it doesn't even crawl when tilted?
ANSWER: The consistency can be different, which you yourself will ask it when mixing and feeding. I make dough like pancakes. The leaven can be thick or liquid, it all depends on the kneading method. See here for more details:
Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0
By the way, when the sourdough is ripe, it becomes liquid (thick pancakes).

QUESTION: The third day I grow leaven. Everything, in general, is as described, only the smell from her is disgusting. Is that how it should be? And it's just scary to put such a charm in bread.
ANSWER: From the 1913 manual.
Characteristics of a good starter culture.
A good starter culture is characterized by the following qualities: it has an alcoholic smell and sour taste; it should not sink in water; when pressing its surface (with a finger), the formed depression should soon disappear.
My sourdough smells sour and yeast, tastes like applesauce.
Other impressions of the sourdough from our site:
- “it began to smell very tasty with fruit kefir, and the bread became delicious, just like with the first sourdough. The first sourdough smelled delicious, some kind of overripe fruit, it seemed to me like cherry. Then I did not bake bread for two weeks and did not add flour and water to it, a clear smell of yeast appeared "
- "At first my leaven smelled like a sour dough. But I got it to feed three days ago and was stunned - the smell of fresh apples"
- "I went and smelled it - it smells like kvass, mmmm delicious"
Starter cultures of different ages can also smell differently, especially a young, freshly brewed starter culture that can smell like raw peas or dampness.
An adult starter culture begins to smell like kefir, yeast, partly with an acetone smell, the smell of varnish. Rye sourdough has a more pronounced pungent and sour smell than wheat.
The smell of the starter culture may even depend on whether it is stored in the refrigerator, hungry, or already fed.
This is not scary, the main thing is that she is healthy, does not become moldy, does not change color from beige-brown to gray-brown-green-raspberry colors and does not stink.
Observe for yourself the state of your leaven and its color and remember all the subtleties.

QUESTION: what color should a good, healthy leaven be.
ANSWER: The sourdough can look different, be of different colors, and depends on what flour you use for the sourdough and what you feed it. Colors from light beige to dark brown tones. Young sourdough can be lighter, and reusable mature sourdough can be darker. The color of the sourdough depends on the flour - wheat gives a light sourdough, and rye gives a dark color.
From the 1913 Manual:
Darkening the color of the bread
The resulting acids, together with alcohol, act as a dissolving agent on gluten and pigment, which causes the dough to darken (in rye bread it reaches black).

QUESTION: I want to start baking bread, when and how to start feeding sourdough
ANSWER: Kefir starter culture is stored in the refrigerator and all processes in it are inhibited, it will not run away anywhere.
Two days before the bread is supposed to be baked and used, it must be prepared. To do this, put the jar on the table in a warm place, let it warm for about 1 hour, then add kefir (curdled milk, yogurt) and wheat or rye flour to it in equal quantities, depending on the sourdough. Stir so that there are no lumps and leave on the table for 2-3 hours to swell, when the swelling processes begin, put it back in the refrigerator for a day. Repeat the procedure in a day. After two days, put the starter culture on the table in a warm place for swelling and the beginning of the formation of bubbles and raising the starter culture for 3-4 hours, this will be seen by the activity of the starter culture, how quickly the starter culture begins to rise. Take the required amount of sourdough from the jar, put the rest of the sourdough in the jar in the refrigerator and leave it alone until next time.
The consistency should resemble a pancake dough with yeast, also bubble.
By smell - sour yeast dough.
In essence and consistency, kefir sourdough is a dough for sour dough, with a large number of lactic acid bacteria.
The more often you feed the kefir sourdough and use it, the stronger and stronger it becomes, I was convinced myself.

QUESTION: where, besides bread, you can use sourdough.
ANSWER: If there is a lot of sourdough, or is not used for bread, it can be used as a dough for baking pancakes, pancakes, added to another dough and so on.

QUESTION: what is dough fermentation?
ANSWER: From the 1913 Manual
During fermentation, carbonic acid is released, which is required by the baker to loosen the dough. The fermentation process is caused by yeasts, which are described in detail in the first part. Yeast fungus is a lower organism consisting of only one cell, about 0.01 millimeters in size. Pasteur considered the yeast fungus as an animal organism that has the ability to breathe, feed and multiply infinitely with such a rapidity that one yeast cell, under favorable conditions, can produce a million cells after 24 hours.
Then, from the action of other enzymes contained in the yeast fungus (diastasis, cimaz, etc.), the decomposition of sugary substances into carbonic acid and alcohol begins (alcoholic fermentation). But since, in addition to (alcohol) yeast fungus, other fungi (from the air or sourdough) get into the dough, the chemical process is not limited to this, but oxidative reactions begin, in which alcohol, being oxidized, turns into acetic acid, sugar into lactic acid, starch in oil and the like.

QUESTION: I keep the leaven with only one top dressing, and then I start baking bread on it, it suits me.
ANSWER: From the 1913 Manual
The amount of yeast for sourdough
Each yeast cell formed a colony of asco-spores. Thus, instead of individual cells, obtaining whole colonies of yeast fungi, he was able, by means of calculations, to determine the approximate amount of yeast fungi contained in the originally taken substance. Thus, he calculated that one gram of pressed yeast consumed by Parisian bakers contains from 5 to 6,000,000,000 live yeast cells.Further research showed that the dough after the end of fermentation contains only 5 to 600,000 of them. This amount of yeast grows rapidly in the old dough, which is why it is used in the form of a leaven that replaces the pressed yeast.
Therefore, I personally prefer to ferment the sourdough dough for a full cycle of 3 feeding.
So, for example, studies have shown that in one gram of old dough after 4, 6 and 8 days, the number of cells reaches 200,000, 2,000,000 and 17 million. moreover, the yeast fungi increase due to starch. Indeed, after 24 hours in the old dough already from 0.7% to 1.9%, starch turns into sugar. But it must be borne in mind that for the benefit of the yeast fungi should not be allowed to ferment too vigorously, since in this case the yeast fungi quickly get tired and begin to multiply slowly. In addition, other bacteria harmful to them can easily develop.
Admin
QUESTION: What to use for baking bread - pressed yeast or fresh sourdough.
ANSWER: From the 1913 manual.
The sourdough contains the same alcoholic fungus as in the pressed yeast, but somewhat smaller, and therefore it is called "saccharomyces minor", which releases carbonic acid without hydrogen. Other fungi also get into flour, for example, from sourdough, if it lies for a long time in a warm place, which do not form carbon dioxide at all, but cause exclusively acidic fermentation with their enzymes, converting starch into sugar, and sugar into lactic acid. The latter is eliminated by other bacteria that cause oil fermentation.
Therefore, it is very important for baking purposes that for loosening the dough, predominantly pressed yeast containing a pure culture of yeast fungus or, in extreme cases, fresh sourdough, but by no means sour, which can spoil the whole dough, is used.
It is not enough, after kneading the dough and adding LOOSING AGENTS, to bake it, since this method produces a very tasteless bread, consisting of a dense crumb with large voids inside. This is due to the fact that with this method, fermentation is often incomplete and not uniform, as a result of which those chemical processes that were described above do not end, and therefore some particles of flour remain unchanged.
As a result, the practice has developed a different way, where yeast or sourdough is added not immediately to the entire mass of the dough, but first only in a certain part of it, called raschin or OPARA, which is left alone for some time to give the dough time to come to the maximum state of fermentation. Then just add a fresh portion of flour and water to it. This fractional addition of flour and water to yeast or sourdough has the purpose of, as it were, refreshing the yeast fungus, that is, at first giving it less work, and then, when it develops and grows stronger in a small amount of fresh dough, they give it new work, etc. until all the dough has been added. For the uniformity of the bread, after adding each new portion of flour, thoroughly mix the entire dough so that all its particles come into contact with the leaven, which contributes to a uniform and faster fermentation.
QUESTION: How often can leaven be used.
ANSWER: From the 1913 Manual.
If baking is carried out CONTINUOUSly and part of the sourdough is constantly taken into work, then, as practice teaches, you should take no more than half of it each time, and immediately add the same amount of fresh dough (mixed in warm water), which, after mixing well, put in a warm place (at + 25 to 30 R.); here they let her stand quietly for two hours to allow the whole mass to ferment.
If, on the contrary, the leaven is used RARELY and it has to lie for several days (sometimes for weeks without using it, then, as indicated above, it must be refreshed by adding flour.
QUESTION: how long should the bread dough ferment (ferment).
ANSWER: From the 1913 Manual.
It is necessary to pay attention so that fermentation does not last too long, otherwise, on the one hand, the dough will begin to acquire too sour taste on the other hand, there is a risk that cracks will appear in the loaves, through which carbon dioxide will escape, as a result of which the dough settles and the bread becomes dense.
Therefore, at the moment when the dough finally rises, the loaf should be immediately put into the oven.
But if this is not possible, then further fermentation must be stopped, for which it is enough to cool the loaves. For this purpose, they are transferred to a cool room or exposed to cool air.

QUESTION: what should the dough piece look like before placing in the oven (oven)
ANSWER: From the 1913 Manual.
The loaf, ready for baking, is a raw spongy mass consisting of elastic gluten mixed with starch particles and soaked in a solution of sugary substances and peptonized proteins. The pores of this loose mass are filled with bubbles of carbon dioxide, which keeps the dough from falling.
An aqueous solution of this mass contains a small amount of alcohol, acetic and lactic acid, i.e., fermentation products.
In this form, the loaves are loaded into the oven, where they undergo further chemical changes.

As an illustration of a dough piece ready for baking, I can show you a photo of my bread - see the left bread, how porous it is, all soaked in pores, you can see it through a glass dish, and has risen more than twice. This dough piece is ready for baking, you cannot keep it in this form further, otherwise the dough will oxyderate and may fall off, and the finished bread will have a sour taste.

🔗
jul123
Pancakes ...

I never make pancakes either with sourdough or without it. But pancakes are loved by everyone.

Recipe:

In the evening, feed the leaven:
1 cup sourdough
2 tbsp whole grain flour
2 tbsp of water

in the morning, add to the entire resulting mass:

2 cups milk
2 tbsp. oils
stir everything.
you can eggs, but now I do not add

Right before cooking
some warm water
2 tsp sugar
1 tsp salt
1 tsp baking soda.

Mix well, pour into the dough and mix again. The dough will begin to grow in size.
Cook in a hot skillet (I do 2 at the same time)

There are a lot of pancakes. We have 5 people. Sometimes a couple of pieces remain.

irinushka
Hello dear bakers!
Now that the worries about bubbling rye sourdough are over and I have in my hands irrefutable proof that I am just a sorceress, I want to boast - share with you what I have learned on this forum.
Thanks Admin! Introduced me to leaven!
A glass of water + a glass of rye flour. This is the beginning. It took, of course, not three days ... more ... excitement and conversations with the sourdough as a family member, but now the result is this: in the refrigerator, in a jar with a screw cap, there is 1 glass of leaven. I bake bread in the oven, in a cast iron pan with high sides. To do this, the day before baking, I take out the leaven, add a glass of rye flour and a glass of water to it, stir it and put it in the refrigerator overnight. In the morning I take out, half, and one part - in the refrigerator until next time, the second part I use for baking today.
And now the recipe I like the most:

a glass of sourdough
1.5 cups white flour (in our stores you can't really run away with a choice)
1 cup peeled rye flour
0.5 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon ground coriander
instead of water, I take 1 glass of Nikola kvass (according to the label - only natural ingredients)
good zhmenka of sunflower seeds - mine, let stand in the water
I mix everything

The dough is watery, you can't divide it on the table. I let it stand in a plastic bowl for an hour, then with my hand dipped in sunflower oil I put it like this - from the edges of the bowl to the center, forming a ball. The dough sticks a little, as if it floats, but obeys!
I let it stand for another hour, fold it again as described above, then transfer it into the same bowl, well greased with sunflower oil, and let it come up to bake for three or four hours.
I heat the oven to 250 gr. C together with a frying pan. Then I take out the frying pan, dump the dough that has come up into it, put it in the oven and sprinkle both the oven and bread from the spray bottle.I keep it at 250 degrees for 15 minutes, then I reduce the temperature to 220 grams. C and leave it for another 30 minutes. I cool it on the grate ... and then !!! Waving one hand away from impatient relatives, I cut a crisp, grease generously with butter and reward everyone present with a wonderful fragrant, spongy, slightly warm miracle called HOME BREAD!
It's worth getting started with sourdough for this moment!
Believe me, since then you won't lure us for store-bought bread!
In addition to material pleasure (tasty, satisfying!) I have an irreplaceable benefit - an amazing mood, just pleasure, the joy of being! A magical feeling! I wish you all experience the same! Thanks for attention! Irina
Admin

"In addition to material pleasure (tasty, satisfying!) I have an irreplaceable benefit - an amazing mood, just pleasure, the joy of being! A magical feeling!"


I sincerely congratulate you on your success, and share your "magic feeling" when you get good bread

Good luck and good bread for the future
Admin

From the 1913 manual.
The sourdough contains the same alcoholic fungus as in the pressed yeast, but somewhat smaller, and therefore it is called "saccharomyces minor", which releases carbonic acid without hydrogen. Other fungi also get into flour, for example, from sourdough, if it lies for a long time in a warm place, which do not form carbon dioxide at all, but cause exclusively acidic fermentation with their enzymes, converting starch into sugar, and sugar into lactic acid. The latter is eliminated by other bacteria that cause oil fermentation.
Therefore, it is very important for baking purposes that for loosening the dough, predominantly pressed yeast containing a pure culture of yeast fungus or, in extreme cases, fresh sourdough, but by no means sour, which can spoil the whole dough, is used.
It is not enough, after kneading the dough and adding LOOSING AGENTS, to bake it, since this method produces a very tasteless bread, consisting of a dense crumb with large voids inside. This is due to the fact that with this method, fermentation is often incomplete and not uniform, as a result of which those chemical processes that were described above do not end, and therefore some particles of flour remain unchanged.
As a result, practice has developed another method, where yeast or sourdough is not added immediately to the entire mass of the dough, but first only in a certain part of it, called raschin or OPARA, which is left alone for some time to give the dough time to come to the maximum state of fermentation. Then just add a fresh portion of flour and water to it. This fractional addition of flour and water to yeast or sourdough has the purpose of, as it were, refreshing the yeast fungus, that is, at first giving it less work, and then, when it develops and grows stronger in a small amount of fresh dough, they give it new work, etc. until all the dough has been added. For the uniformity of the bread, after adding each new portion of flour, thoroughly mix the entire dough so that all its particles come into contact with the leaven, which contributes to a uniform and faster fermentation.
Admin
Quote: Pannochka

This is water and flour itself, and here I also found a recipe for sourdough with the addition of yeast, I would like to know your opinion whether they differ in something or not
For a long time I want to try sourdough bread ... but somehow scary

Everyone on the forum invents different approaches to bread and different sourdough cultures, including yeast. If these recipes work and are liked, then they have the right to life.

I can only talk about those leavens that I have developed and tested myself. This is a lactic acid sourdough, and many people on the forum use it with success.

If you want sourdough bread - first you need to make a quality sourdough.
See it here:

Lactic acid starter culture from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

Buckwheat sourdough. Message No. 56
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=3394.new#new

Sourdough from different types of flour (MIX-6) Page 4 Answer 57
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...ic=3394.0

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=3704.new#new

In any case, leaven is very simple, and leaven is labor and love for what you do.

Further, I can recommend baking your own wheat-rye bread (although there are enough recipes on the forum) using these recipes. I assure you you will not regret it.

1. Wheat-rye "Darnitskiy" bread from Admin (page 11, Answer 159)
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...f&Itemid=26&topic=596.180

2. Molded wheat-rye bread on MK-leaven from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=3470.new#new

3. Wheat-rye bread on dough from Admin
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...6&topic=3626.msg40436#new

Bread wheat-rye-buckwheat molded on MKZakvask from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...34.0

Bread wheat-buckwheat molded on buckwheat sourdough from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...mid=26&topic=4235.new#new

This is for a start, for every taste, and then choose yourself.
Pannochka
Thank you so much Admin for your patience and understanding.
I read a lot of what you recommended, but I'm afraid that your lactic acid starter culture will not work for me, since we have lactic acid products (kefir, whey, cottage cheese) are destroyed faster than purchased
I would like to try it from rye flour and water, since I often bake rye than white (according to the recipe from the fugasca)
I would also like to ask you is it very important for the temperature to be 30 degrees, but is it possible to make a leaven at room temperature in the summer?
And please tell me if I bake bread every day or every other day should I put the ready-made sourdough in the refrigerator?
Admin

"I would also like to ask you is it very important that the temperature is 30 degrees, and is it possible to make a leaven at room temperature in the summer?"
And please tell me if I bake bread every day or every other day should I put the finished sourdough in the refrigerator? "

You can also set room temp.

The starter dough can be compared to the yeast pancake dough, so imagine what will happen to this dough if you don't use it on time and leave it on the table overnight, for a day, a week. I think the answer is obvious.

Rye (or other) sourdough cannot be used in the dough every day, it must rest for 5-7 days, starve, and then it must be fed several times in a day so that it gains strength and becomes active and strong for the dough.
Therefore, if the leaven is used often, every other day, it is advisable to keep two leavens - one is resting, the other is at work.
The sourdough is considered ready for laying in the dough when it is fed and ripe.
Girlra
Admin, found just such a leaven. Your opinion, here is a very cool dough, is it possible to make it like on a pancake?

This recipe was described by Professor Culvel in his talk at the 1993 Sourdough and Sour Dough Workshop in Las Vegas.

Take 125 g of bran and pour over the bran with warm water (0.5 l, 38C). Leave on for 30 minutes. Then strain the water and mix 300 g of this water with 600 g of wheat flour and 3 g of salt.

Store at 25C (preferably at 27-28C), refresh 4 times every 20 hours according to the scheme:

300g of the previous starter dough, 300g of flour, 130g of water, 1.5g of salt.

Then refresh the starter and let it ferment for 12 hours. freshen up again and let it ferment for 7 hours. The leaven is ready.

This is the longest-running leavening process Calvel has ever developed. It takes 4-5 days. On the other hand, this method produces an exceptionally high quality starter culture with a good balance between the acidity of the starter culture and its lifting force.

Note. If the leaven increases in volume in a measuring cup 3.5 times in 5-7 hours, then it is ready. This can happen earlier than on the fifth day.
Admin
I got acquainted with his leavens.

In my opinion, those sourdoughs that you like are good, since you can try many and reject everything for taste or other reasons. As a rule, it turns out that way, including me.

Bran sourdough specific for use.
For an example, see my leavens from oatmeal and 6 types of flour:

Buckwheat sourdough. Message No. 56
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.new#new

Sourdough from different types of flour (MIX-6) Page 4 Answer 57
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

There you will also find information about leavened hercules.

Sourdoughs proved to be excellent both as leavens and in bread applications.But after several times of baking, I no longer use them - after all, they did not go to taste, I don't want such bread anymore.

As a result, I liked only bread made with buckwheat and rye sourdough, it turns out very tasty bread - for me in any case.

So, my advice is to try everything and only look for your own.
And another tip - if you have not baked bread at all before, it is better to practice while baking wheat and wheat-rye bread in a bread machine.
Starter cultures are more difficult for beginners to work with. There is enough information on starter cultures on the site.

Good luck!

light1
I read the following information on another forum:
In the classic "pure" leaven live:
Lactic acid bacteria (a group of homogeneous bacteria that produce only lactic acid)
Acetic acid bacteria (heterogeneous bacteria that produce lactic and acetic acids)
Yeast (produces alcohol and carbon dioxide)
Depending on the temperature regime, the balance of culture shifts in one direction or another. So, homogeneous lactic acid requires temperatures from 30 to 36 (and even up to 40) degrees, acetic acid - 20-24 degrees, yeast - 26-30. This does not mean that at room temperature the yeast will immediately fall asleep, it is just that acetic acid bacteria will have priority. Lactic acid and at 20 will work well, but if the dough is overheated, the yeast will "fall asleep", and the lactic acid bacteria will be free.
At home, now I have a fever of more than 35 degrees, I removed the can of sourdough to the coolest place and it immediately grew up, but the day came and settled again (very hot). Admin! And that she will fall asleep, then wake up like that? And I can't wait until the temperature drops? I live in the Crimea and it's hot everywhere ... What can I do?
Admin
Quote: svetik1

Admin! And that she will fall asleep, then wake up like that? And I can't wait until the temperature drops? I live in the Crimea and it's hot everywhere ... What can I do?

Try not to read literature at this stage and not embarrass yourself with other thoughts.

First, make the starter according to the rules, at least like mine:
Lactic acid starter from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0


Constantly observe and compare until you do. For now, copy my version of the starter, do something with it, work a little, get used to it.
At least now you will have an example in pictures before your eyes.

And then the flag is in your hands, read and study all the sites in a row and apply to yourself.
You can get another one.
Believe my experience - you will look at leavens with completely different eyes, unless, of course, you are not too lazy to continue to deal with them. Other questions have already come to mind.

We also have enough information on the forum of smart people about bread and leaven

For a great article on leavens, see the text above in this thread.
And see the section Bread is the head of everything, there is also a lot of theoretical information on temperature conditions, technology of leavening and baking.
Scarecrow
Just don't throw your slippers at me if I blur out something wrong.

I don't understand much in sourdough yet (I haven't tried it with my own hands, I just actively read Old). But I decided to share what I read.

I read the branch and saw that almost everyone kept the leaven in the refrigerator (and this is 1-6 degrees). I read that professional bakers never store sourdough in the refrigerator (below 10-12 degrees). There are no zones with such temperature in the refrigerator. Wild yeast in the refrigerator develops well and steadily, but the lactic acid bacteria contained in the starter dies. It is alive, it rises and lifts the bread, but there is no rich microflora left in it, which gives the bread a unique taste. That is, after the refrigerator, the composition changes, which will not return to the previous one. Moreover, bacteria are killed selectively. Some lactic acid products have a much higher cold resistance than others, so the taste will vary, but will not return to the previous one, since some strains have died from unfavorable temperature conditions and are completely lost.Outwardly, the two starter cultures stored in different conditions (refrigerator and at room temperature) will not differ.
I myself have not tried it yet, but home bakers with extensive experience have confirmed this information.

In general, for what I bought, for which I sell. Maybe I didn’t discover America, or maybe someone will need such infa.

Qween
Scarecrow , and where then to store the leaven?
Scarecrow
qween

They are stored in special refrigerators at the required temperature. And at home, it is advised to store at room temperature or somewhere where the temperature is not lower than 10-12 degrees. I can't even find now where I read it originally ... I beg your pardon.

Admin

You are confusing me with someone. I have never written anything about starter cultures on any website.

I still won't do laboratory research in my kitchen. The starter culture in the refrigerator is not of poor quality, it has a different composition, which changes the taste and characteristics of the final product. That was the point of the article. Of course, I do not pretend to be true. I will repeat: for what I bought, for what I sell, I just decided to share the information I learned with more experienced people. I thought theory was always interesting.

The French sourdough borrowed by Viki, as far as I understood from the site of Lyudmila from LJ, who writes exactly the same:

I also put in French sourdough. I'm trying to figure out what will come of it.
light1
Admin! Does ABC have experience in growing thick (solid) starter cultures? Two times I put French thick and both times two stages went well and then there were no fermentation and rises in the thick dough. I understand that it is easier with liquid leaven, am I right?
Svetik S
Tell me, please, do you need to crush sourdough bread?

Yesterday I baked and kneaded, he did not rise again
light1
Starter cultures - in questions and answers
Svetik S! I just baked my third bread using only leaven. Baked in the oven. Has risen more than 2, 5 times. The bread came out of the bowl. When I kneaded the dough (5 minutes) I put it to rest and after 20 minutes I mixed it a little more (but I think that it would be possible to do without it). And everything and in shape, after 2 hours it rose very well. By experience (small) and last time I didn’t do it. And yesterday she asked a question in the "dough" about kneading under different baking conditions (flour, yeast, sourdough), but so far no one has answered. So I'll wait and listen myself ...
I forgot to mention that the bread is about 40% rye, the rest is wheat.
Svetik S
now I also think that it is not necessary to crimp him.
my bread rose by 1.5 times in an hour, and I took it and kneaded it
he took offense at me and did not grow up anymore
I will no longer offend him
Admin
Quote: svetik1

And yesterday she asked a question in the "dough" about kneading under different baking conditions (flour, yeast, sourdough), but so far no one has answered. So I'll wait and listen myself ...

I would do this:

I would walk through all the topics and bread recipes (which have a photo and which suit in terms of parameters and appearance), looked at the recipe, the ratio of wheat and rye flour, yeast, sourdough, other additives and made a table for myself on this ratio of various types of flour.
And a comment for yourself.

I have already written about this issue many times and in different topics.
kava
Maybe I'm not quite on-topic, but ... I have grown kefir sourdough, I bake mainly wheat-rye bread on it, which made it possible to reduce the amount of yeast and achieve rye sourness (although I still cannot regulate its degree of severity). I am satisfied with the taste, but the rise is not very good, although I knead for a long time, and I remove the scapula after the main batch. I cannot complain about the "hilly" bread, the top is always flat and not very high.
But the question is different: can you put sourdough in the dough for pies (not sweet)? And is it worth it? Maybe someone has such experience?
jal
Good day!
For several days I have been studying the forum about sourdough bread ... Very interesting to read
In general, yen has sourdough for a long time (1.5 years), "eternal" leaven (rye flour + water). It seems that while we get along well with her Peku usually rye-wheat bread without yeast, only with sourdough.The scheme is simple - I take out the leaven from the refrigerator, update it and let it "earn". I knead the dough and let the dough stand for about 6 hours, during which time the dough is more than doubled. Then I CHINK and put it in a mold, there the bread costs about an hour, doubled and only after that in the oven for baking.
In all the recipes on this forum (maybe I just missed it?), Where only sourdough is used, the dough is suitable only once. That is, baking immediately after first raising. ... Question! what is the difference between two lifts or one? The dough in my case will be sour ???
In general, I have repeatedly met the phrase on the forum - rye bread must be blended once (that is, two rises of dough), and wheat bread twice (three rises of dough) ... Or is this a rule only for bread with ORDINARY yeast?
I myself make one crunch of rye because that's how I was taught. ... And I read the forum and thought, maybe it’s not worth beating him, but straight into the oven right away ... Or still ...
Admin

For bread maker only!

Bread is wheat-rye with a ratio of wheat and rye flour (or rye with other types of flour together) 70-30, or in extreme cases 60-40%.

Rye-wheat bread with a ratio of rye flour to wheat flour of 30-70%, this is closer to rye bread and also not for everyone.

And the bread is purely rye 100% rye flour, this is a specific rye dark bread for an amateur, not everyone likes it.

Wheat-rye bread can be easily baked on prog. The main (basic) time is 3.50 with two proofings and pastries (for example Darnitsky bread)

It is better to bake rye-wheat bread and especially pure rye bread with a long kneading, one long proofing and baking.

Much depends on which version of the flour ratio you took.

If you bake in the oven, then there are a lot of options for baking and proving the dough, but as a rule
wheat bread has one batch, two proofers, baked goods.
wheat-rye bread has a kneading, one proofing, baking.
rye bread is kneaded, proofed, baked.

If the wheat dough is fermented 3 times, it will peroxide and will have a slightly rubbery crumb and sour taste, and the rise of the dough is lower.

In general, this is such a large and long topic - what and how to choose and how to bake.

I have also been baking bread in different versions for a long time, but I prefer to knead wheat dough in the oven in the "Dough" mode (already one proofing) and let it stand at 30 * C (one more proofing) and bake in the oven.
You can do the same with wheat-rye dough with a low content of rye (or other) flour.
If the content of rye and other flour is high, or purely rye dough, then it is better to do one proofing and bake immediately.

The best counselor is your own experience of finding and observing the test.

Good luck!
jal
Admin, thanks for your reply.
The bread is rye wheat, because the content of rye flour in my bread is greater than that of wheat. I must try and risk moving away from my proven recipe for years, in the sense of not crushing the dough after proofing and baking right away ... Maybe, really, the bread will only benefit from this and I will get less fuss)) So I will experiment !!!!
It's good that I have now learned something new!
LightOdessa
Hello everyone!
I'm new to this forum. I recently bought a bread maker, now it’s impossible to tear me away from it. I bake every day, sometimes even twice. I was very interested in the topic of leaven without yeast. I grew a rye-wheat sourdough on water, though I added a little sugar, the sourdough really resisted, and didn't really want to grow. Today I baked my first bread on one leaven, without yeast. Wheat bread on rye-wheat sourdough. The result is quite tasty bread, very reminiscent of the taste of a brick of Soviet times for 16 kopecks. Such a slightly grayish bread. My husband really liked it. He even felt a little nostalgic. I also liked this bread.I can't point out the exact proportions yet, I added a lot in the process, the dough was quite liquid, it stuck to my hands and the bread maker, but it went up well, although, probably, it could have been better. Probably I interfered with it a little. But in general, I am very happy with my HP, it has never failed, all baked bread was quite edible, and to a greater extent even very tasty. The only negative is the rapidly adding pounds.
I want to ask a question: What should be the ratio between leaven, water and flour? My sourdough is not very thick, like a dough for pancakes.
And one more question: If there are residents of Odessa on the forum, can anyone know where you can find whole-grain flour, flour of 1 and 2 grades, as well as malt and molasses in our city? The paradox is that on Privoz, where everything is there, this is not ...

Respectfully all, Svetlana.
Admin
Quote: SvetaOdessa

I want to ask a question: What should be the ratio between leaven, water and flour? My sourdough is not very thick, like a dough for pancakes.
And one more question: If there are residents of Odessa on the forum, can anyone know where you can find whole-grain flour, flour of 1 and 2 grades, as well as malt and molasses in our city? The paradox is that on Privoz, where everything is there, this is not ...
Respectfully all, Svetlana.

On the first page of this topic, you will find a list of topics about various leavens with direct links.
There is no clear ratio of flour - water - sourdough on the forum, everyone adapts to their taste.
Go to the Sourdough Bread section and see the recipes by the authors, decide for yourself.

Regarding flour, go to the Bakeries section, unite, then go to your city - there and communicate.
LightOdessa
Thank you very much for your reply. Indeed, there were quite a lot of "ours", that is, Odessa residents.
I want to share my impressions. I am baking the second bread with pure sourdough (rye-wheat flour + water). The leaven is young, one might even say very young - it is 6 days old. Based on the recipe "Rye-wheat bread with hop sourdough" from Lola https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...topic=258.0, having slightly modified it, instead of 3 tablespoons of sourdough, I took 7, the sourdough was not hop, as in the recipe, but "like" eternal, and instead of 150 ml - 180 ml of water, in addition, I replaced half of the rye flour with wheat bran, added 1 tbsp. l. milk powder and 2 tsp. mustard powder (I really like mustard bread). The sourdough was only an hour and a half, like from the refrigerator, but fed directly cold, the program chose "Dough", the proofing lasted an hour, after that I turned on the oven for ten minutes for kneading - any program, Stop, again proofing for an hour, and finally, - bakery products. The dough rose very well, but the roof is still flat. In ten minutes I will get my masterpiece, I will share about the taste tomorrow.
Good night (or good morning) everyone, whoever you like ...
Best regards, Svetlana.
P.S. I can't upload photos - there is no camera, bluetooth, IR port - nothing, my computer is 7 years old - a veteran.
LightOdessa
Good morning (afternoon, evening)!
I share my impressions - the bread tasted quite decent, very rich and satisfying. Light mustard flavor, although it is more pronounced in pure wheat bread. For the future - I will not add mustard to wheat-rye, the taste is slightly lost ... Cons: the roof turned out to be completely flat, as if it had been cut off with a knife; the bread crumbles a little more than the others that I baked, a little heavy, although rather porous. It was baked well, but the crust is light and not crispy, apparently 1 hour of baking is not enough. Baked in a bread maker.
Best regards, Svetlana.

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